CITYSAFE PODCAST
The CitySafe Podcast explores how retailers, loss prevention teams, and the people responsible for safety navigate theft, incidents, and risk in environments where what you know, and what you do about it, can carry real legal weight.
Co-hosted by Jim Cords, retired from the federal side, whose career spanned the FBI, DHS, and OIG, and Don Carr, who has owned and operated private security guard companies and architected security systems, the CitySafe Podcast focuses on the space between detection and response, where so much of retail security actually plays out.
The CitySafe Podcast reflects the personal views and opinions of its hosts and is a conversation, not professional advice. Rather than offering tactics or prescriptions, it examines how knowledge, duty, documentation, and the choice to act are understood differently across retail environments, and why the same approach does not protect every operator the same way. Listeners should consult their own qualified professionals on questions of legal liability, operational risk, security, and compliance specific to their circumstances and jurisdictions.
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CITYSAFE PODCAST
Ep. 38: The Loss That Clocks In · Employee Theft Investigations and Interview Liability
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A site supervisor, a three-page exception report, and an operator who walked into the room already certain. Don Carr opens with his own near miss and Jim Cords explains why most versions of that story end in a deposition: exception reports tell you where to dig, never what you'll find; an employee's belief they can't leave does the false-imprisonment work by itself; and promises and threats are the two ways a good interview commits suicide. Don presses Jim on how any of this works at two in the morning on a site with one supervisor, and gets a real answer. Then the week after, where a single hallway conversation becomes defamation and the termination letter's one forbidden word. Loss. Liability. Law.
This is the City Safe Podcast, a conversation at the intersection of community safety, technology, and leadership, co-hosted by Don Carr and Jim Kortz. Together, we examine the critical issues facing cities today and the smarter tools that can help reduce crime and protect our communities. From instant communication systems to emerging technology, we break down what works, what doesn't, and what's next for urban safety. Because in today's world, keeping people safe requires more than good intentions. It requires innovation, data, and decisive action. Listen to the City Safe Podcast, available now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube Music. Subscribe today and join the mission to make cities safer for everyone.
SPEAKER_02So, Jim, the loss we've been chasing lately came through the front door. Today, it doesn't walk in at all. It clocks in. It has a name badge, a locker, and a schedule you wrote.
SPEAKER_00And in most shrink studies, internal theft runs neck and neck with external theft. Some years it leads, but the legal exposure isn't neck to neck. So get an employee case wrong, and you're not defending a $40 stop. You're defending a termination, an interview, and every word anyone said about that person afterward. I'm Don Carr. I'm Jim Kords. Welcome to the City Safe Podcast. Employee theft is today's topic. In the room where these cases are won and destroyed, usually in the same 10 minutes.
SPEAKER_02I'll start with the one I still think about, Jim. Running a guard company, a site supervisor, and a three-page exception report. Clock-ins that didn't match the patrol data over time that didn't match the schedule. I walked into that room fairly certain. Well, how certain were you? Well, certain enough that I'd already drafted the write-up, and then he told me the time system didn't work on the building's Wi-Fi. So the guy before him had taught him to clock in from the parking lot. So every anomaly on my printout was a workaround somebody else had trained into him.
SPEAKER_00Right. And that's the trap. Register data, voids, refunds, exception reports. It feels like a confession waiting to happen, right? But an exception report flags anomalies. It doesn't prove intent. The cashier with the high void rate might be stealing or might be the one person trained wrong on that register. Data tells you where to dig, but it doesn't tell you what you're going to find.
SPEAKER_02Well said. So what saved me wasn't discipline. He talked before I did.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And most operators aren't that lucky. They walk in treating the printout as a verdict. And that verdict shows up later in a deposition.
SPEAKER_02Right. The room, then. We did false imprisonment with customers a long while back on this. And I'll argue it's easier with an employee. They know you, they're on the clock, they're not bolting for the door.
SPEAKER_00Well, and that's exactly why it makes it harder. False imprisonment isn't about a locked door, it's about a reasonable belief that they're not free to go. When the person across the table controls your paycheck and your next reference, a closed door does that work by itself. The employee who stays put isn't consenting. They're calculating what leaving costs them.
SPEAKER_02So door unlocked, told out loud they can leave. Witness present.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. And every time. And told out loud means it's also in the notes with the time it was said.
SPEAKER_02And here's where I'll push on the witness. Guard work runs at two in the morning on a client site with one supervisor and nobody else for 40 miles. You're telling him to wait for a second person who doesn't necessarily exist.
SPEAKER_00Well, then he doesn't do the interview at two in the morning.
SPEAKER_02He can't not. The shift's ending and the guy's driving home.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well then maybe he does it with someone on the phone. Maybe a manager on speaker, name and time in the notes. It could be a witness. It's not perfect, but a file that says second manager joined by phone at you know 210 in the morning beats a file that says nothing about who is in the room.
SPEAKER_02I'll take that. And I would not have thought of it, actually.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the world I come from has conference rooms. Your world has parking lots. The same law, but just different logistics.
SPEAKER_02Right. Now the words. The standard move in my world was tell us what happened and this stays between us. I've heard it a hundred times.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, promises and threats. The two ways a good interview can commit suicide. Tell us what happened and we keep it in-house. Sign this and we don't call the police. A statement is only as good as it conditions that it was made under. Promise leniency that you can't deliver, or squeeze a repayment agreement out under threats of charges, and you haven't built a case. In some states, you've committed one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And last week's demand letter handed across a table instead of mailed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's the same coercion, but with fewer stamps.
SPEAKER_02And the week after, that's where my story actually goes wrong. The supervisor wasn't disciplined. He hasn't even written up. And I still told two other supervisors why I pulled them off the site. He heard a version of it from the client.
SPEAKER_00A manager tells the closing crew why Sarah's gone. Word reaches the store where she's applying. And if the conclusion turns out wrong or just unprovable, every one of those conversations is a statement of fact about a crime she may not have even committed.
SPEAKER_02Which is the part I tell an operator before any of the interview stuff. The termination letter says violation of company policy. It never says theft. So policy violation is yours to define and yours to prove. Theft is a crime. And the second you write it down, you've volunteered to prove it to a jury that's also going to hear how that interview went.
SPEAKER_00And the same rule runs the whole file. Her explanation goes in. The training gap goes in. Not because you believe it, a file that considered it and ruled it out reads like an investigation. A file that ignored it reads like a company that decided first.
SPEAKER_02So run the frame, and I'll take one this week. The loss.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And the law. Conditions govern statements. And words govern exposure. Unlocked door. No promises, no threats, no diagnosis in the termination letter. A file that investigated instead of concluded.
SPEAKER_02Next week, what happens when the losses get added up? The spreadsheet that turns misdemeanors into a felony. Or into a problem. I'm Don Carr. I'm Jim Kords. Stay well, stay aware. And stay city safe.
SPEAKER_01That wraps up this episode of the City Safe Podcast. Thanks for joining us in the conversation about smarter strategies for safer cities. If you found today's discussion valuable, share it with your network and help us spread awareness about the tools and technology making a real impact. Be sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube Music so you never miss an episode. Until next time, stay informed, stay connected, and stay city safe.