Ep. 35: Trespass Has a Memory · Banning and Re-Entry

Telling someone "don't come back" feels like the end of a problem. It's actually the start of something you have to maintain. Don Carr and Jim Cords walk through what a ban really is the withdrawal of an invitation that generally holds up, but only as well as the record behind it. The three places it gets complicated: notice that was never documented, a building that forgets who it banned when staff turns over, and the fairness question, bans that attach to who somebody is instead of what they did. The clean rule is conduct, not category, and when the re-entry happens, the response is calm: recognize, notify, and let the record do the work. The ban gives you the right to exclude, it is not a license to grab anyone. 

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SPEAKER_00 0:02

This is the City Safe Podcast, a conversation at the intersection of community safety, technology, and leadership, co-hosted by Don Carr and Jim Kortz. Together, we examine the critical issues facing cities today and the smarter tools that can help reduce crime and protect our communities. From instant communication systems to emerging technology, we break down what works, what doesn't, and what's next for urban safety. Because in today's world, keeping people safe requires more than good intentions. It requires innovation, data, and decisive action. Listen to the City Safe Podcast, available now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube Music. Subscribe today and join the mission to make cities safer for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

So, somebody's caused enough trouble in your store that you've told them, you're done here, don't come back. And there's kind of this satisfying finality to that moment. Problem handled, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Except the ban isn't an ending, it's the start of something you now have to maintain. Because the question was never whether you can tell somebody to leave. Generally, you can. The question is what happens six weeks later when they walk back in and the person at the register has never seen them before. I'm Don Carr. I'm Jim Cords. Welcome to the City Safe Podcast. In this episode, we're talking about trespass and banning.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

So let's start with the foundation, Jim, because I think there can be a lot of fuzziness on what a ban actually is, legally speaking.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

So the basic idea is pretty solid ground. A store is private property that's open to the public. And generally, a business can withdraw that invitation from a specific person. Once you've clearly told somebody they're no longer welcome, coming back can be trespassing, depending on the state and how the notice was given. Some jurisdictions want it documented a certain way. Some police departments have their own trespass notice process that they'd rather you use. So the mechanics can vary, but the core power to say, not you, not here, is very real.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

That's right, Jim. I remember specifically back when I was running guard companies, you know, security guard firms. It was very specific how we had to issue a trespass notice. And if it wasn't in accordance with how that needed to be issued per the statute, it didn't hold up. So let's talk about where this can get complicated, because on the surface, it comes off as pretty simple.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

I think it gets complicated in three places. And the first is the notice itself. I told him to get out in the heat of an incident is a lot weaker than a documented notice. Who was told when, by whom, and how long it runs? If it ever matters, if police ever get called on a re-entry, if it ends up in front of anybody, the question becomes can you show the person actually knew they were banned? A vague verbal shout out during a chaotic moment months ago from an employee who since quit. In many cases, that's really not much to stand on.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Absolutely, Jim. So that ban, it needs a record. Same as everything else that underlies what we talk about on this show.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yes, absolutely. I like that. The ban needs a record. Yeah, it's the same as everything. So the second place it gets complicated, the memory problem, right? Which is where kind of where I started. A ban only works if the building remembers it. Because staff turns over, shifts rotate, and the person you banned back in March walks past a whole new crew in September that has no idea. And now you've got this awkward middle ground where the ban technically exists and practically it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Indeed. And I'd guess inconsistency is its own problem here because if you enforce it some days and not on others.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Yeah, it can be in a couple of different different ways. Practically, an unenforced ban loses its teeth. It's hard to treat someone as a trespasser when they've been shopping there weekly without a word. And then there's the fairness question, which is a third complication. And it's the one that deserves the most care. Who gets banned and why? If your bands cluster in a way that looks like they're based on who somebody is rather than what they did, that can become a discrimination question. And depending on the jurisdiction, a pretty serious one. The clean version is simple to say. Bands attached to documented conduct. This person did this thing on this date, and here's the record. Not a feeling about somebody, not who they appear to be.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Well said, Jim. And I think again, that last part that you just mentioned is worth repeating. Not a feeling about somebody and not who they appear to be. So conduct, not category.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Yeah, that's the whole rule. And it protects you in both directions. It makes the band defensible and it keeps the decision honest.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

So then the re-entry happens, right? The band person walks in again. What does the response look like when it's done right?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Well, mostly calm. And that kind of disappoints people. The right version in most cases is recognize, notify, and let the process work. Tell them they're trespassed and ask them to leave. If they refuse, then that's typically a police call, not a physical confrontation. So we spent a whole episode on where hands-on goes wrong, and every bit of that applies here. The ban gives you the right to exclude someone, but it's not a license to grab that person.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

That's right, Jim. And this instrument, used properly, can be very effective. The paperwork's the muscle, it's not the arms.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yes, very well said. And when police do come, this is where the documented notice earns its keep. You can hand them the record, right? Here's the ban, here's the date, here's the prior conduct. So that's a clean call for the responding officer.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

So the takeaway: a ban is a system, not a sentence. Document it when you issue it, keep it somewhere. The building can actually remember, tie it to the conduct, and when it's tested, stay calm and let the record itself do the work it was designed to do.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Yeah, trespass has a memory. Make sure it's yours and not just theirs.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

So next week, the fine print. The technology you bought, the promises the contract actually makes, and the ones it very carefully doesn't. I'm Don Carr.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

I'm Jim Court. Stay well, stay aware, and stay city safe.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

That wraps up this episode of the City Safe Podcast. Thanks for joining us in the conversation about smarter strategies for safer cities. If you found today's discussion valuable, share it with your network and help us spread awareness about the tools and technology making a real impact. Be sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube Music so you never miss an episode. Until next time, stay informed, stay connected, and stay city safe.