CITYSAFE PODCAST
The CitySafe Podcast explores how retailers, loss prevention teams, and the people responsible for safety navigate theft, incidents, and risk in environments where what you know, and what you do about it, can carry real legal weight.
Co-hosted by Jim Cords, retired from the federal side, whose career spanned the FBI, DHS, and OIG, and Don Carr, who has owned and operated private security guard companies and architected security systems, the CitySafe Podcast focuses on the space between detection and response, where so much of retail security actually plays out.
The CitySafe Podcast reflects the personal views and opinions of its hosts and is a conversation, not professional advice. Rather than offering tactics or prescriptions, it examines how knowledge, duty, documentation, and the choice to act are understood differently across retail environments, and why the same approach does not protect every operator the same way. Listeners should consult their own qualified professionals on questions of legal liability, operational risk, security, and compliance specific to their circumstances and jurisdictions.
Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube Music.
CITYSAFE PODCAST
Ep. 21: The Architecture of Asset Protection with Khris Hamlin, RILA
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There is a structure underneath every loss prevention program. Most leaders inherit it. Few examine it. Khris Hamlin spends his career looking at that structure across the largest retailers in the country at the same time. As Vice President of Asset Protection and Retail Technology at the Retail Industry Leaders Association, he sits in one of the only seats in the industry with that view.
Recorded three weeks after RAP 2026 in Phoenix, this conversation moves from the patterns the public reporting hasn't named yet, to the Washington work about to land at the store level, to the technology deployments that actually changed outcomes in 2026, without naming a single vendor. We close on the human boundary around AI that retail hasn't drawn yet, and what Khris thinks the next five years actually ask of the people doing this work.
For LP/AP leaders, retail operators, and anyone trying to read where this work is going next.
This is the City Safe Podcast, a conversation at the intersection of community safety, technology, and leadership, co-hosted by Don Carr and Jim Kortz. Together, we examine the critical issues facing cities today and the smarter tools that can help reduce crime and protect our communities. From instant communication systems to emerging technology, we break down what works, what doesn't, and what's next for urban safety. Because in today's world, keeping people safe requires more than good intentions. It requires innovation, data, and decisive action. Listen to the City Safe Podcast, available now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube Music. Subscribe today and join the mission to make cities safer for everyone.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to another episode of the City Safe Podcast. I'm Don Carr, and today's guest sits in one of the most uniquely positioned seats, really, in this entire industry. Christopher Hamlin is vice president of asset protection and retail technology at the Retail Industry Leaders Association. And Rela represents the largest retailers really in the country. And Chris sees across all of them at once. So we were at Rela together here in Phoenix a few weeks ago, maybe four weeks ago, three or four weeks ago now. And there's a lot more to talk about than we can fit in one episode, but we have to start somewhere. So Chris, welcome to the program.
SPEAKER_01Don, thank you so much for having me here on the podcast. Super excited for this conversation. So looking forward to it, man.
SPEAKER_02So are we, Chris. So jumping right in, I mean, we just wrapped Rela 2026, Phoenix, a few weeks ago. 1,200 members, hundreds of sessions, the exhibit floor. So when you fly home from something like that, what's the conversation that you can't stop replaying in your head?
SPEAKER_01Just reflecting back, uh, first off, the tiredness from being around all those practitioners and and all that, all that thought leadership uh across the board uh was just super impactful. Um, but but leaving, you know, leaving that and just thinking about those conversations that were top of mind, you know, it's it's clear that organized retail crime, violence in the workplace, like those were some top themes uh that that resonated with me out of walking, you know, walking away from the conference. The other thing that really stuck with me, Don, was a conference was the title of it was positioned on ground truth. And you know, our whole purpose uh of that title was to really bring back or bring the leaders back to a place of what is the reality that they're dealing with today in the field? And ultimately, how do we start those conversations on addressing or positioning ourselves across the industry to deal with what's happening today? So not the futuristic, not what could happen, what might happen, but what are you actually dealing with and challenged with today in the field? And so, you know, that that those were the the thoughts that were with me. Just hearing some of the stories of the from the team and where their focuses are, and then also where their challenges are and where and where the gaps are, where they need support and help, uh, and and where we can bring those leaders across the industry together to be able to move the industry forward uh were some of the thoughts that that sat with me as I flew home from Phoenix.
SPEAKER_02Well said. Um I want to ask you something a little more nuanced. You you know, you you sit in one of the only chairs in this industry where you see across the entire major retailer membership at once. It's not one company's view, it's really an aggregate view. Um with that said, my my question is what's something the cross retailer pattern shows that maybe the public reporting still doesn't quite capture?
SPEAKER_01You know, so uh it's always been a battle out there um when it when it comes to what the public sees or knows about the retail industry versus what actually happens within the retail industry. You know, many members of the uh of the public um they think about the loss that happens with retailers and they and and they say, you know, that's the cost of doing business. You know, that that's just that's just how things are. Um but the the real reality that's out there is the violence that's out there. You know, when you start to think about the the the the loss that happens or what we call you know the cost of doing business, you know, retailers when when they make their their their state when they send out their statements, their earnings, and they and they make statements in regards to the loss that's happening within their establishment, um, a lot of people say, well, well, you know, that that's what that's normal. That's what what happens. And then when retailers start to say, hey, we have to pull out of a city, we have to vacate, we have to leave because we're not profitable in this place, um, the public, you know, they they charge at the retailers and they say, why? Um and and what one of the things that I think that that I hear at my seat across the industry is that retailers are plagued with violence and violent offenses that happen within their stores. Um they're also plagued with very sophisticated and very organized criminal networks that are plaguing their stores, especially in some key marketplaces across the United States. And so, you know, when I when I sit back, um, you know, my goal is to be able to advocate for the industry, to be able to share those stories that they might not, the retailers might not publicly be able to speak about because they have shareholders and they have vendor agreements and things like that, but to be able to share it at an aggregate level across the industry. So the public knows that these challenges that they're facing are actually real. They're real challenges. And this is where the public, you know, coupled with the support of uh public policy individuals, coupled with um our um government teams that are out there covered coupled with law enforcement, that's where the work starts. That's where you bring these parties together to really start the work and the efforts to be able to support what the retail industry needs.
SPEAKER_02Understood. And I I find this especially interesting because I'm sure you remember as well as anybody. Right around the beginning of COVID, maybe a little before, these these larger retailer policies started to shift. And it really shifted to a hands-off approach, um, meaning the physical contact was to cease. So when you tell me that this violence is ever increasing, um I find that very interesting, right? Because uh it's not uh instigated, if you will.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, Don, but you you think about this. You know, when right before we went into COVID, you know, I don't know if you were like me, Don, or or if I don't know if the watchers were like me, but I, you know, I'm a guy that likes to go into a store. I like to try on what I want to buy. I might want to test it out, see other items or things like that uh that that can accompany that that item that I'm about to purchase. Um and I I didn't really spend a lot of time shopping online. Um, but I'll I'll tell you, COVID changed it for me, changed it for my household, probably changed it for the majority of the listeners out there and in the American, the the public or you know, the public or the individuals to shop, uh, shop out there across America. It changed it for them where we had to get comfortable with shopping online. Like that was our only resource for a while. Um, and what that really did was it it fueled a space where bad actors took advantage of that demand that drive the shop online. They took advantage of that space because now they had the opportunity to be able to offer goods on different marketplaces, sometimes at the same amount that a retailer would offer it on their own sites or within their own stores anonymously and at a wider reach to anybody that's out there. And what we saw coming out of COVID or coming through COVID is what we saw is we saw these individuals become very aggressive. We saw the violence mix in there because you think about this. If I steal an item from a store and I sell it online, if I, you know, I steal it at eight o'clock, I have it online by 10, I could have it sold by 12. You know, it it it's it it accelerated the ability to be able to turn stolen goods into profit. And it allowed these bad actors to operate in an environment that's low risk, but a high reward environment. And that that's what we see. That that that's what's happening, and that's what's continued to happen year after year. We're all comfortable shopping online. I think I do most of my shopping now on online, but you think about it, in the back of your mind, I I know I do, I think about it. I could be purchasing or I might be looking at a store online or a storefront online that might not be the authentic store. This might be a store set up by a bad actor, and the goods that I might be about to purchase could have been stolen, and a person could have been assaulted in the journey of those goods that made it online for us to purchase. And so, you know, that that's where we are. And the violence hasn't stopped. These guys have gotten even more aggressive and more sophisticated in their operation, and a lot of this stuff is fueling other criminal networks that are out there.
SPEAKER_02And that's despite the policies of no contact.
SPEAKER_01Right. And so you think about it, you know, no contact, that no contact piece was uh a piece that retailers kind of really put in the mix to keep their team safe, to keep, you know, to keep their employees within the store safe, to keep those guys safe. Now, this the this is the the the the untold story is that you know you have individuals, some of our some of our retail members, they've set up like greeters or different individuals to just stand at the door as a visual deterrent. They're not there to engage a shoplifter, they're not there to stop a shoplifter, they're just there to be a visible presence that maybe the shoplifter might think twice because they got to walk past somebody. Those those bad actors are are taking out their aggression on those individuals as they're walking out of the store. And like, like, you know, their intended purpose is just to be there as a visual element. Um, but that that's where you know that no contact, that no touch piece kind of really went into place for for a lot of our retail members out there because the effort was how do we keep our team safe as we work or navigate through these challenging environments?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, well articulated. Um so that talks about where the gap is widening. Now, Chris, where do you actually see the gap closing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, I what I've seen over the last, let's give it three years or so, um, as we've been dealing with some really prolific events out there across the industry. Um, what I've seen is I've seen higher levels of collaboration with public and private partners. You know, this is where you have law enforcement meeting with prosecutors, meeting with retailers, and saying, you know, what are those major challenges out there? What do you guys face with? I mean, we we've seen over the last three years, we've seen um and we've led these efforts here from a real standpoint where we've been able to connect retailers with their local prosecutor, and we've we've established store walk cadences where multiple times a year, the retailer will invite that that, you know, invite that lawmaker out, invite that prosecutor out to come walk their stores and actually see what's happening in their stores, see, see you know what items are getting stolen, what areas, see what the effects are, and also understand that if they're pleading down cases or they're dismissing charges, to actually see what that does as far as hurting the employees or hurting that store environment uh where those stores are actually operating in. And so, you know, what I see that's changing out there, where I see that you know, the where efforts are, is when you bring together law enforcement, you bring together prosecutors, you bring together retailers, you tell people to set their egos aside, and let's come in a place where we're not competing against each other, but we're at a place where we're competing against the bad guy. How do we compete for a safer environment? How do we compete uh to slow down these disruptions that are happening, these violent offenses that are happening? And when you do that, that's where you see this collaborative work happening. I mean, you know, I was super excited uh last night uh for those that were following the news, you know, there was a House Bill 28 uh 2853 uh combating organized retail crime. It passed the house last night. And this was a Herculean effort across the industry to be able to get this. I mean, a couple years ago, we had another effort with the Informed Consumer Act. You know, when you when you start to get laws that support the slowing down or support uh the the collaborative efforts of attacking organized crime, this is where change happens.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well said. You know, I I even um it's funny because I I attend a lot of these events and I I bring a podcast to a lot of these events for the industry. And you know, I like to meet with vendors and and and talk to the folks that have the boots on the ground for these different companies. And it's it it kind of makes me smile um sometimes because it's like there's this mentality, like you said, of competition, right? Of like this ego. And it's like, you know, if you look at this industry as a whole, um, it's a pretty massive industry. And then if if if you look at the problem, right, it's just as massive. And then you look at the solution providers in the space, there's not that many. It's like, you know, like you know, people say competition. I like to call it cooperation.
SPEAKER_01That's it. There you go.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Right? And that's just kind of my vernacular for this. It's like, are you kidding me? Like, we are so much more powerful together in this, and there's plenty for everybody. Nobody has to, you know, like vie for their piece of the pie. Like, you know, like you know, why are we really doing this, right?
SPEAKER_01Everybody has a niche, they have they have a solution, they they can fit that niche. You know, like all retailers are not made the same. You got large to medium, the specially, you know, like you said, everybody can be into in this play together. And especially where I see an acceleration, Don, is when you have these those solution providers that's that that say, hey, we're gonna let that you go down. We're gonna look at how our solution can work with your solution, that can work with that solution, that's gonna be able to give that insight to law enforcement, to retailers, and to be able to help support this the problems that we're seeing across the industry. That that's where we win.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And you know, and we're talking about you know, some of the larger players, and I think sometimes it's easy to forget the other 65 to 67 percent of retailers that are mom and pops. There you go. That seem to be underserved in this space. So every conversation, Chris, in this industry seems to ultimately end up at AI. We always get there. Um always get there. Where do you think the line should sit between what AI does and what a human should still do? Not technically, but more so more so uh ethically and operationally.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, I I sit here, I'm a I'm a huge advocate. You know, a part of my role at Rela is serving as the VP of retail technology. So, like like this is a space where I where I love to play in. Um, I'm an advocate for AI. Um, I think from my perspective, when you think about where that line should be, you know, AI is a tool. Just like many of the things that that we have out there, it is it is a tool that allows for us to be more efficient. Uh, it allows for us to be able to crunch information uh in a much consolidated uh uh cycle. Uh, it allows us to be more focused and really kind of put our priorities in the right basket. Um, where I think that line should be is that you can't rely on AI to be your solution. AI has to be a support system to your solution. And so that that you know, that's where I look at it as. I look at it as a place where you're always going to need some human intervention with AI. But I'll tell you, if used correctly and positioned correctly in a space that's ethnically, morally compliant, it can really maximize your efforts uh and and and your focus and really kind of narrow down your programs uh across your business. Um, and so you know that that's a space where many of the retail leaders that are out there, I talk to the CIOs every month uh from our member companies. Uh, and and as we're as I'm hearing them benchmark and I'm hearing them them talking, they are leveraging the AI tools within their company, not as a as a person replacement, but as an assistant to drive higher levels of efficiency and and a maximum output that they're getting across their brands.
SPEAKER_02Very, very well said. Um you know you you might want to slow that down or play it on repeat because that was that was a fully loaded answer, but very, very well articulated, right? You you covered uh you you uncovered many layers in that answer, and that's worth sitting with. Um one of the last things I want to ask you, Chris. I mean, we could sit here and talk for hours, but I want to be respectful of our time commitment. Um what's what's the one thing that you wish more retail LP AP leaders understood about the work that Rela actually does? Not not the marketing answer, the the real Chris Hamlin answer.
SPEAKER_01You want the real, real Don. Right. You know, for me, we spend a lot of time in the advocacy space. We spend a lot of time connecting and collaborating with with partners across the industry. You know, the the the one thing that um I always sit with when when people are saying, well, you know, I don't really understand. What's the difference between one trade association versus the other trade association versus versus this? You know, when you think about Rela and you think about the rooms and the conferences and the meetings that we host and the ones that we have, um those are the rooms to be in. This is the place where leaders across the industry come to convene, but more importantly, to look at ways to advance and move this industry forward. You know, when we when we have a conference, you know, that that conference, we had seven different leadership meetings at the conference to talk about key topics across the industry, not in a competitive sense, but in a way to say how can we understand this as a as a total retail asset protection leadership group? And then what do we need to do when we go back to public and private partners to be able to move the industry forward? That's what REALA does. That's what separates us from any other trade association out there because we are we are convening with the leaders and we are making true progress on moving these issues or these matters forward.
SPEAKER_02I appreciate that answer, Chris. Um, you know, this has been a very real conversation, and I'm certainly grateful for the time. Um before we close, where do you want listeners to find you and uh to find out more about what Rela is doing right now?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. You can jump on Rela's website, uh, it's uh R Ila.org. Um you can click on the Asset Protection link there uh and learn all about our communities that we serve. We have several different communities between our Asset Protection Leaders Council, our Crimes Against Business community, um, we also have our workplace safety community, and I also lead our our our chief information officer community of this out there as well. Um, those are just a small fraction of what Rela supports when it comes to the retail industry. That's just my my portfolio. But we touch every aspect of the retail industry and the leaders across there. And of course, if you want to connect with me directly, you can find me on LinkedIn. It's Chris with a K, K-H-R-I-S Hamlin.
SPEAKER_02Chris, thank you. That's Christopher Hamlin, VP of Asset Protection and Retail Technology at the Retail Industry Leaders Association. Chris, I thank you very much. And to everyone listening, this is the City Safe Podcast. Stay well, stay connected, and stay city safe.
SPEAKER_00That wraps up this episode of the City Safe Podcast. Thanks for joining us in the conversation about smarter strategies for safer cities. If you found today's discussion valuable, share it with your network and help us spread awareness about the tools and technology making a real impact. Be sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube music so you never miss an episode. Until next time, stay informed, stay connected, and stay city safe.